Bussing with folders, reverb send and inserts on the folder

Hey all, I had some initial issues setting up the routing in Reaper the way I like it. My orchestral template is configured like this: The Flute VCA controls the volume of the Piccolo Flute folder. Every instrument in the folder has its own reverb send that's going to "FX Seventh Heaven". With the VCAs I'm able to control the overall volume of the Flutes, without changing the dry/wet ratio. However, there's one issue. When I put an insert (compressor, saturation) on the "Piccolo Folder" and reduce the volume via the VCA, the insert will get less volume, too. Is there a way to set the insert post fader? Or maybe another solution?

Hey Tod! Sorry, written, it sounds all very complicated. I just made a short GIF to visualize what I mean. In the video you see 2 nested folder tracks. "LOOPS" is the main folder track and one level beneath is the "Rhythms" folder track. Inside, we have two instrument instances. They are both sending to "Rhythms" and "Rhythms" is sending to "LOOPS". "VCA: Loops" in the mixer, is the VCA to all instruments in "LOOPS" / "Rhythms" I hope everything makes still sense. Okay, next is the insert. I put a saturation plugin on the "Rhythms" folder. The sound is great, the levels of the instruments just saturate the way I want it. Now, I noticed that the overall level of "LOOPS" is too loud and I want to reduce it by some dB. When I do this, the saturation plugin will get less input and the sound changes. That's what I don't want. Is there a way to keep the level for the insert, e.g. changing the volume AFTER it has passed the saturation plugin?

You can set VCA slave only for the Rhythms folder and not the individual tracks. But then you would have the problem of wet/dry ratio of individual sends on children. This will always happen when you put a plugin in a BUS that processes a mix from more tracks.

Or you could set VCA slave for the folder and the reverb return, this way the wet/dry ratio would stay intact I think. On the other hand this would only make sense if you'd have separate reverbs for the different sections / folders. Generally, I think there's no 'real' solution, as it's in the nature of things as heda says.

I guess you are right, guys. I'm just surprised, because this approach was no problem in Cubase. The issue is: even if it's possible to solve this, it might be an ultra complicated routing. Like putting a fake-reverb-send into each folder and routing this to the main reverb in the "root directory". But as I said, this routing gets very complicated. EDIT: not sure if I'm right, but if we were able to use inserts in post-fader mode, then this problem would be solved.

I posted this in , but it might help here, too. You don't need VCAs if you use multiple channels on the parent track as submixes for the sends from the children. Send levels follow the parent fader, but the children stay at one level going into the folder. It does exactly what you want and is really not any more collocates than setting up all those VCAs. A lot less tracks to deal with.

Just another thought, couldn't you create another VCA track that only controlled the two folder tracks?

Hey ashcat_lt. So I tested your solution, which is pretty great actually. But it fails, when you change the output level in the insert plugin (like the makeup in a compressor). Then the insert will again destroy the dry/wet ratio. I guess, this is due to the fact, that inserts are pre-fader instead of post-fader. This whole routing thing really messes with my brain :D It's hard to keep track with this complex routing and I think I give up and will just try to avoid using an insert on a bus. As a sidenote, this all works perfectly, when the reverb is INSIDE the folder, where the insert is applied.

Hey Tod, I just tried that, the issue is: the folders act as busses (parent folder send is activated), which means vca'ing the folders reduces the overall volume of the bus but not the volume of the send. So this destroys the dry/wet ratio again. Unless I'm really overlooking something.

I'll get to you guys shortly, a bit covered in work here!